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Where might I find "strong" glass?
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 Posted: Sun Apr 26th, 2009 04:12 pm
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Emily Carlson
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I wonder if you have any suggestions of where I might look into "strong" glass.  Obviously the thicker the glass, the stronger it is.  I'm familiar with Derix's up-to-code laminated glass (and had the wonderful opportunity to see, up close, a panel blow during installation.)  What other technologies are available or under research for fairly large pieces of color-saturated glass that would withstand many Chicago seasons in an outdoor installation?  "Strong" in this case might be an enormous understatement; if you've ever been to Chicago in the winter... 

Much thanks in advance,
Emily



 Posted: Sun Apr 26th, 2009 04:25 pm
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Vic
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Emily Carlson wrote: I wonder if you have any suggestions of where I might look into "strong" glass.  Obviously the thicker the glass, the stronger it is.  I'm familiar with Derix's up-to-code laminated glass (and had the wonderful opportunity to see, up close, a panel blow during installation.)  What other technologies are available or under research for fairly large pieces of color-saturated glass that would withstand many Chicago seasons in an outdoor installation?  "Strong" in this case might be an enormous understatement; if you've ever been to Chicago in the winter... 

Much thanks in advance,
Emily


"a panel blow during installation"

 

What exactly happened?



 Posted: Sun Apr 26th, 2009 05:58 pm
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mmezalick
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It must be something on late night cable TV.

There are many other places with more harsh ?? weather conditions than Chicago.

Glass is pretty strong and with the addition of lamination adding to the "strength" I would wonder what life expectancy one would be hoping for.
How about multiple layers of lamination ( AKA Bullet proof glass)
 

 

 

Derix's up-to-code laminated glass (and had the wonderful opportunity to see, up close, a panel blow during installation.)  What other technologies are available or under research for fairly large pieces of color-saturated glass that would withstand many Chicago seasons in an outdoor installation?  "Strong" in this case might be an enormous understatement; if you've ever been to Chicago in the winter... 

Much thanks in advance,
Emily


"a panel blow during installation"

 

What exactly happened?



 Posted: Sun Apr 26th, 2009 07:35 pm
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Emily Carlson
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What happened is that the pointy tempered corner touched something hard (or)  "Too many cooks..."  Bummer one way or the other. 

Bullet proof!  Now that's something interesting to consider!  It seems so perfectly pedestrian, it never crossed my mind.  How does it do in the slumping process?  I guess I've seen lots of it Not Flat.  How does it do in regard to UV light & color changes?  I imagine its technology is way past that.  How would it do sandwiching the colored art glass?  What about heat & expansion?  Would the laminating material accommodate that?  

The location would also offer lots of wind / vibrations.  Life expectancy, well that would depend on the materials.  I'm hoping for 75 to 100 years - and am known to be an optimist.  So I guess I should work toward 200 years.  Yes, I'm from Chicago and therefore biased.  We are the Windy City, of course! 

Thank you for a great idea.



 Posted: Sun Apr 26th, 2009 07:55 pm
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Krueger
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Are you aware of the Sarah Hall installations, many outdoors, in Canada, which would have more severe weather than Chicago?  What kind of glass does she use?  I think Derix fabricate a lot, if not all, of her work.



 Posted: Sun Apr 26th, 2009 08:23 pm
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mmezalick
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According to the National Climatic Data Center's list of annual average wind speeds, the windiest U.S. city is Dodge City, Kansas, with an average speed of 13.9 mph. Other windy cities include Amarillo, Texas (13.5 mph) and Rochester, Minn. (13.1 mph.). The windiest "big" cities are New York City (LaGuardia Airport) and Oklahoma City, which both have an average annual wind speed of 12.2 mph.
The "windy city" of Chicago isn't as high on the list as you might think. It's average annual wind speed is 10.3 mph.

 

As for the rest of the questions, not enough time right now to go into it.

Barbara's suggestion is right on.

Sarah Hall has some great work.

http://www.sarahhallstudio.com/

 

Michael



 Posted: Sun Apr 26th, 2009 08:39 pm
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mmezalick
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How does it do in the slumping process? 
Since laminated glass is a layer process, each layer should be slumped before laminated.
 
  How does it do in regard to UV light & color changes? 
If the glass is colored it will do as well as any other "stained glass"
 
  How would it do sandwiching the colored art glass? 
The lamination process can use a liquid polyvinyl to do the lamination
[url=mhtml:{F000C370-0A00-4E9C-A62C-E07C50E98DA3}mid://00000086/!x-usc:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laminated_glass]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laminated_glass[/url]
 
 What about heat & expansion? 
Would the laminating material accommodate that?  
 
[url=mhtml:{F000C370-0A00-4E9C-A62C-E07C50E98DA3}mid://00000086/!x-usc:http://www.oldcastleglass.com/laminated_overview.php]http://www.oldcastleglass.com/laminated_overview.php[/url]


The location would also offer lots of wind / vibrations.  Life expectancy, well that would depend on the materials.  I'm hoping for 75 to 100 years - and am known to be an optimist.  So I guess I should work toward 200 years. 
 
From what I have been told, there are no end limits to laminated glass,



 Posted: Mon Apr 27th, 2009 10:55 am
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Courage
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Hi Emily,

I toured Dependable Glass Factory located in Covington, LA. They do a lot of commercial glass fabricating. I was there doing some research on hurricane codes for our area. Dependable glass can laminate an interspace area with .090 liquid polyurethane, or whatever is necessary. They can also do laminated glass or laminated colored interlayers. They can test for you and design for your needs, so that your art will withstand your elements. They also work on Gov't contracts for missile impact glass for American Hum V'ss. They will also provide the glass for your specific test, and do the testing. Good luck, Cindy



 Posted: Mon Apr 27th, 2009 11:01 am
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joseph2bears
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Hi Emily.  There is a lot going on in the commercial glass world with "decorative" glass.  The reference to Old Castle Glass will provide some information on this side of the business. 

Basically, there are 4 directions: dye printing on the plastic lamination between sheets of float, screen printing ceramic powder (and firing) on float, sandblasting on float, and the use of roll-textured float. 

These things are being done by the very large commercial glass companies who regularly work with architects, and who work with building codes on an everyday basis.  They have a good understanding and work with building codes for wind load, hurricane codes, safety codes, U-Factor insulating codes, and curtain wall installation codes on an everyday basis.  Very few stained glass artists, with the exception of Sarah Hall, have made any inroads into this business. 

There are opportunities for "stained glass" if you want to think differently.  The vast selection of "tested compatible" glass that is available from Bullseye, Uroboros, and Spectrum make this possible.  That coupled with Peter McGrain's Vitri-Fusaille, Michael Dupille's Fritography, and Tony Glander's Screen Printing techniques open the door to a revolution in stained glass. 

A composition can be fused to any size and thickness to meet architectural specifications.  The fused panel can be laminated or heat treated to meet safety codes.  It can be double glazed to meet thermal insulating codes.  It can be installed using conventional glazing methods and materials by ordinary glaziers since it is a single sheet of glass (or dual pane construction) made to architectural specifications like ordinary float.  Think about it: no lead, no putty, no solder, no special handling or installation requirements that severely discourage the use of traditional stained glass. 

The downside is that it is considerably more expensive than the "dretch" commercial glass companies are offering.  But the upside is that it is art glass, with the vibrant colors and qualities that only an artist can produce. 

I hope this gives you some food for thought.

--Joseph 2bears



 Posted: Wed Apr 29th, 2009 03:42 pm
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Emily Carlson
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Thank you everyone for great food for thought.  Sarah Hall's work is gorgeous!  If anyone has additional ideas I would love to hear them. 

Best,
Emily



 Posted: Thu Apr 30th, 2009 11:46 am
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Robert Jayson
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Hi Emily

Please take a moment to visit Lamberts website at http://www.lamberts.de

You will need to click on the British flag in the upper corner, then References at top, By application, then Facades.  As you scroll throught he projects you will see quite a few have been laminated to large format laminated safety glass.  The process involves a 2-part silicone of extremely high quality produced by Wacker Chemical that will not yellow or degrade over time.  The actual lamination process is relatively simple, however it must be done with great care and attention to detail.  The substrate can be laminated or tempered or tempered and laminated glass.  It depends what your requirements are.

More information including instructions for fabrication are available from Lamberts.  The contact person with a tremendous amount of glass processing knowledge is Manfred Mislik.  Manfred teaches the process to studios throughout Europe. 

The liquid lamination allows for glasses that are not perfectly flat, however slumped glass is most likely out of the question.  (FYI - lamination of slumped glasses is a specialized field and most likely problematic if you are using art glasses slumped in your studio.). 

One last suggestion regarding windload requirements - contact the architect of the building and request what type of glass has been specified for the specific opening(s).  The architect is responsible for the specification of the proper glass and materials for the building.  Study and determination of required building materials for windloads, climate and special conditions is standard operating procedure for design firms. 

Good luck!

 



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